June 25, 2008
Posted by Claire
Sockin’ it to the military moms!
Brat posted an ad put out by the same liberal, divisive, group that accused our good General of being a betrayer. The ad shows a woman holding her baby, and she tells Senator McCain that when he says ‘we will stay in Iraq for 100 years if that is what it takes to win’, then he can’t count on her baby.
The ad is pure tripe. If you don’t get caught up in the “warm fuzzies” the ad is constructed to give (actually I figured out later it was a bowl of chili that caused mine…) you will feel insulted that these people think you are stupid enough to be scared that anyone is asking you to hand over your baby. I have said it before, and I will say it again… a wild dingo is a greater risk to your babies than the US Military. They don’t want your little ones. Calm down!
I can honestly say, whole heartedly, as a military mother, that no one came to my home and ripped my babies from my arms. I can also assure you all that I did not take them to recruiter’s station and beg them to take them off my hands. No matter what the ad says, my sons’ decisions to join the military were their own. There is a concept in our Country called “freedom.” Freedom allows young men and women 18 years and older to make their own decisions. Sometimes young adults can sign on before their 18th birthday if their parents agree to it. Babies grow into full grown, voting, legal adults. They make decisions and no matter how much their mother may agree or disagree, there is no legal recourse for her to stop him from doing what he wants to do within the realm of the law.
Making decisions for oneself is also called “self determination.” It’s quite a wonderful concept, and something that my adult children practice everyday. I do not tell them what they can and can’t do. I do not tell them what career paths to take. I do not tell them who to vote for. I do not tell them what to eat. They are adults and are perfectly free to make their own decisions in life. I trust them. I trust their abilities to make good decisions. I can trust them because I did my job when they were little and under my care.
Sentaor Obama and Senator McCain, listen up; as a military mother times two, I love my sons who are soldiers more than life itself. I have never met a single military mother who is happy, thrilled or at peace that her son or daughter is serving during a time of war, and I am no exception. I do, however, respect the adult decisions of my children, and I support them 100%. Now, if you want to come to my home and take my baby, you can’t have her! She’s only four and I most certainly do have authority over the decisions made in her life. However, if my grown children sign up to serve this great Country and defend our Constitution, I will love and support them — and fully acknowledge that this is their decision to make, on their own.
Now, as far as taking innocent ground hogs off the streets and recruiting them at a terribly young age… well, the picture speaks for itself.
33 Comments
June 25, 2008
Although I hadn’t eaten a bowl of chili, the “Baby Alex” political ad ignited a slow burn in me rather than giving me the “warm fuzzies.” I couldn’t believe the gall the Moveon.org people have to use a mother’s love for her child as a emotional string in a political ad. Especially when the ad is so out of touch with reality. It doesn’t recognize a volunteer military, or that members of the military choose to serve. It doesn’t recognize that “Alex” will be able to make up his own mind whether to serve or not, once he’s grown. It doesn’t recognize that it will be years before “Alex” is old enough to make that decision. I kind of feel sorry for “Alex” that he’s being raised by such a selfish mother. She probably won’t let him play on the playground with other kids, either. He might get germs.
June 25, 2008
Hi Claire. Excellent article.
What really gives me the “slow burn” is MoveOn distorts the issues. Perhaps she does not want Baby Alex to have free will. Perhaps the “warm and fuzzy mommy” would like to raise her child as a tyrant. He looks like Damien on a bad hair day. The ad is pure ad-hominem and shows a lack of respect to Senator McCain. The man was tortured and held captive for Heavens sake. How about some respect.
As an Obama supporter, ads like that make me cringe. “Fair is foul, and foul is fair” in politics. The ad, not endorsed by Obama, muddies the water. On the other hand, remarks made concerning flag pins, terrorist fist jabs, a lack of patriotism on the part of Obama, attacks on his wife, his race, etc by other groups do not help the cause either.
As to the wars, the only true answer is we don’t know the right answer yet. I think that is an honest and fair statement. I wish someone had the courage to say as much and listen to the Generals so they can operate in an apolitical vacuum.
The current administration does not allow for this objectively. Objectively, we need the Military’s advice without fear of spin. Bush created an atmosphere whereby our standing in the world has lost its muster.
June 25, 2008
Love it – and wondering if the picture is symbolic of how our military may look in the future depending on who gets in…
And seriously, now. Was just thinking about some of the great orators of our times (well actually before MY time, of course.lol)
I know that many Democrat supporters malign anyone who dares to suggest that Obama’s oratorial skills are merely empty rhetoric with no substance.
But I was thinking about that. In times of great peril in any nation’s history, the man in charge (PM or President etc) has had to be a great orator to make the case for unity in the face of whatever is threatening them. Think Churchill. That man had every British citizen supporting him, standing with him as they all fought the war effort together.
Then on the other side of that coin, of course: Hitler.. Another great orator, but whose oratory almost brought Europe to its knees.
Just thinking out loud here. Back to regularly scheduled Hooah programming..;)
June 26, 2008
Lela, I have a term for that… I call them “hover-mothers.” They are like little helicopters who hover constantly and won’t let a child grow through experience.
Sgt.P. I agree about the mudslinging. In either direction it is ugly and unnecessary. If anyone has a legitimate reason for not endorsing a Candidate or casting a vote for him, then there is no need for all of the mud. This has been something that has irritated me greatly over the past 8 years. Bush has made plenty enough mistakes and has left his party base enough that there area a lot of legitimate reasons for people to not like his Administration, but the mudslinging that has gone on and crazy conspiracy stuff has made those who oppose him (like Move On) look ridiculous.
I also agree that the war has been politicized into the ground. If the military were left to do their job they really could have done much more, more effectively and much quicker. My only issue is… there is no Candidate that will leave it as a war and not turn it into his own political show piece. One of Obama’s big campaign talking points from the git-go has been calling Iraq “Bush’s war.” I hardly see how he will be any different when it comes to managing the war — only he will do it from another extreme. I guess we are in a Hegelian swing politically in our Country. No happy medium.
I am a Centrist more than anything. I would love to have a Candidate who would hit the scene and put the Federal Govt. back in it’s place, and remind the American people that the hope, courage and the greatness of this Nation comes from them — not from Washington.
Brat, Platitudes get you everywhere!
I missed your call last night! :sad I am sorry I was not nearby the phone…. it was a weird evening. Anyway, call again tonight if you can. I will keep the cell phone on me at all times!
June 26, 2008
Right on everyone.
I saw the ad, and thought ‘What a pathetic attempt”.
Not only is it BS, but it’s bad BS at that.
It’s simply not a good ad.
It’s shot fuzzy, poorly lit, the acting is bad, the script fails to impress, and it’s laughable.
When Bush was running for the first term, the far left mantra was “Bush will bring back the draft!”
That hasn’t happened, much to the chagrin of the unwashed leftists. The Voluntary Military has removed the drumbeating protestors, who have no threat of being subjected to the defense of the country that allows their scabrous presence.
Even Cindy Sheehan has become a laughing stock and fails to get any press these days.
But why let facts, such as it’s a voluntary military, get in the way of propaganda?
Baby Alex, my sweet patoot!
http://www.kneedeepinthehooah.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_rolleyes.gif
:rolleyes
June 26, 2008
I have now posted this in all sorts of places
Fire extinguishers at the READY!!
June 26, 2008
Fire extinguisher ready, Ma’am!
Can I pull the pin? Can I? Can I? Huh? Huh?
:ch
June 26, 2008
I will let you make that INDIVIDUAL decision, Mr Hooah! Because of COURSE, neither you, nor Mrs Hooah, nor even MOI, make decisions for ANY military or government agency. Speaking personally, lol, I have enough trouble speaking for myself, let alone the WHOLE government… :8
Oh, and in case you missed the intro to Mrs Hooah’s piece, check it out here:
http://assolutatranquillita.blogspot.com/2008/06/because-yes-we-can.html
That’s MY public service announcement for today. Got to go check the brat fire extinguisher….lol Over to you, Mr OR Mrs Hooah!
June 26, 2008
How many of us with sons or daughters serving in our military imagined that they would be doing so when they were 9 months old? I know I sure didn’t. No one is going to come and take anyone’s baby. I also think that people misunderstand what is meant when it is said we will be in Iraq for 100 years. I see it more like the reason we are still in Korea, mainly for stability.
June 26, 2008
I hope Stand-Down, errr that is,-To! doesn’t intend to link to Claire’s article.
(
On a serious note: Yeah, I think people misunderstand the 100 year comment as well. My own take is that the man was just using intentional exaggeration (or another word that starts with an “H”) to make a point. His point? We’ll be there as long as it takes to complete the mission. Whatever mission whatever administration defines. You know. That mission.
As for stability, I’m not interested in Iraq as a base for stability. I’d rather keep a footprint in Afghanistan. It allows for many more … options … geographically speaking. :wink
June 26, 2008
“I am a Centrist more than anything. I would love to have a Candidate who would hit the scene and put the Federal Govt. back in it’s place, and remind the American people that the hope, courage and the greatness of this Nation comes from them — not from Washington.
”
Yeah, Claire, thank you, this speaks well for me too. Self-determination, folks just might be losing a grip on that kind of thing these days, I swear. Thanks for writing this one–it certainly needed to be said.
June 26, 2008
Dearest Claire,
“Bush’s War.” hmmmm….. is that fair? I don’t think the military should be politicized. However, when the leader is President and Commander in Chief, I must respectfully dissent. I think that tame compared to the rounds being fired by many at Obama. Sickening. His wife? Without casting any dispersions upon the Armed Forces, “Bush’s War” has a basis in truth. He made the decision. I think he was manipulated. Old school vendettas. I can actually rationalize some of them. Even Rumsfeld’s and Cheney’s conduct. The Generals, those who I think properly broke their silence and were out of the norm because this decision was out of the norm, happened for a reason. Civilian leadership didn’t listen to the Generals. Are you kidding? I don’t teach Larry Bird to shoot hoops. Finally, someone is listening. However, too late. Time for a change.
After 9/11, we could have had the whole world on our side to fight terrorism abroad. Enemies unite against common enemies. I’ve studied Ancient Art of War. No, I’ve never been in war. But, I know to listen to my greatest opponents issues for advice. I think Bush is the dumbest President we’ve ever had. Sadly, he was rope a doped. He did a good job in NYC for a brief moment in history. Actually, great. That one moment. Then, they (his inner circle) and played the dirtiest pool with him in American History. Sick.
Does that mean rubberneckers with brains and military folk who are Pro-Obama should be castaways? I should hope not.
It was a mistake to go in. Ok. We’re in it. I’m past that. Let’s gettir done. Right. With all the “intelligence” I would have voted to invade Iraq if there was a “clear and present danger.” Which, is what I thought. Preemption was not even a cause here to debate through the looking glass. Fine. We’re in it, we need to solidify the forces, build up recruitment (I’m pro-defense) and concentrate on Afghanistan and Iraq. How? Who knows? Look what happened with North Korea today and China. What? China? The big picture?
Nixon spoke with China. McCain is more Hawkish on Iran than Bush. I kinda want to blow them up but from a global view, I have to put away the “Bomb Bomb Bomb, Bomb Bomb Iran” ditty which was one of McCains better moments. C’MON.
From an objective military analysis, I’d like to know if anyone can admit they don’t know the answer? Know what you know. Wiser to know what one doesn’t know. I know what isn’t working here. Republican control of anything.
Fact: Change should be coming. Fact: The odds fare better with a new breed of Democrats (see I don’t care how that word is used) who respect the military and ain’t no Hanoi Janes. Fact: You want better health care, education (GI Bills), more spending for Vets, Obama has a better record than McCain.
Plus, he was the original victim of the swift boat. 2000. Now, he kisses up to Bush? Sickening but political reality. But, unreal. He’s not the JMAC of 2000 whom I liked. The GOP hurt,him tangibly, in ways one cannot understand unless you are JMAC, Fact: The GOP ads that are upcoming from other groups like moveon will be far worse than the stupid baby alex ad. Fact, I love the case that came out today from the Court on the 2nd Amendment and handguns which Obama supports.
Fact: Bush can’t spell N.R.A. :lol
June 26, 2008
One last thought: How in the world do we allow electronic devices, like cell phones with cameras, even get into the hands of those in sensitive areas? Those pictures should have never come out. I really think the government should ban cameras and electronics in sensitive areas. How conservative of me.
in todays day and age. War is hell it is said. If that’s true, be smart enough to tighten the funnel that exposes hell. Like stupid gadgets in the darkest of places I cannot fathom. There is a reason we have words like “Top Secret” and “Covert Ops.” How the heck do you keep anything quiet without doing your best to prevent a leak. Even a wrong one or a right one. Some things we shouldn’t see. Curious how y’all feel about that. Those pictures devastated our standing exponentially. Loose lips sink ships.
June 27, 2008
Well, to be honest I could pull out a ton of horrible things said about Bush and his wife and his kids over the past several years — some I feel were outright criminal (innuendos of assassination, etc.) . Let’s be very honest here and say that the mudslinging is very ugly on both sides, and if we are going to say it’s not fair to Obama then we need to say it sure hasn’t been fair to Bush — or McCain (the age jokes, the comments about his teeth, calling his ability to lead into question because of his POW experience, etc). I most definitely think that saying things like the “baby daddy” comment aimed at Michelle Obama was tasteless, classless, stupid and arrogant. Trust me. I do not have a problem with anyone taking her to task on what she says in the public arena, but critique the content of what she says. There is no need to be juvenile and resort to that kind of discourse. I feel the same way about Obama and McCain.
You might be surprised to know that I don’t necessarily disagree with very much of what you say. You say it well, and you are a very level headed, articulate commentator on the subjects. I appreciate the position you take on Iraq.
“It was a mistake to go in. Ok. We’re in it. I’m past that. Let’s gettir done. Right. With all the “intelligence” I would have voted to invade Iraq if there was a “clear and present danger.” Which, is what I thought. Preemption was not even a cause here to debate through the looking glass. Fine. We’re in it, we need to solidify the forces, build up recruitment (I’m pro-defense) and concentrate on Afghanistan and Iraq. How? Who knows? Look what happened with North Korea today and China. What? China? The big picture?”
That is exactly what I want to hear Obama, loudly, clearly and resolutely proclaim. If he did take a bold stand that he is willing to stay the course IF that is what is needed then my head would turn. I have listened to him speak, and I have yet to hear any thing like that. I do think that calling the War in Iraq “Bush’s war” is a way of politically distancing himself from it. I would have much more respect for him if he would put into practice this theory of uniting the Country. We as a Nation are at war. You said it best in the quote above. Everyone knows he didn’t vote for it. We know. We know. Good. Done. Let’s move on and talk about the War in Iraq and what we are going to do for victory.
I want specifics. I need details because this talk of hope and change means nothing to me. I mean it when I say I have not a shred of hope in our Government. Hope is far too precious a commodity to hand over to a politician – regardless of his Party. I feel like a voter with out a Candidate. Republicans and Democrats alike have become far too corrupt, complacent and they are both ineffective. I think that the Democratic Congress we have in place now is business as usual. No changes. Nothing new going on in Washington. Hot air, huge promises and a lot of talk. Would I expect more from Republicans at this point in time from the GOP — no. Not at all.
I am at an impasse at this point, politically speaking. I don’t know exactly how it will be resolved for me. If either party were to turn out a strong leader like their old school leaders (Reagan, Roosevelt. et al) then I may take notice. As it stands now, I just don’t see it.
I was not sure which pictures you were referencing in your last post, but I agree that OPSEC should never be compromised.
June 27, 2008
Thank you.
I often equate politics to poker. Obama is not merely going to pull out immediately. Pragmatically, that’s impossible. His view is morphing. As is McCain’s frankly. Why? No one knows the right answer. We’re back in a spot that seems ever so familiar. Vietnam. This time, when the troops come home, it won’t be the same. I think it irrational to think so despite nut jobs. This country has learned its’ lesson with regard to that. I pray I am right on that.
Enough division. Flip-flop is a dirty word. How about, changing one’s mind legitimately based on reason? Therein lies the conundrum wrapped in Rubick’s Cube. Reason and politics taste like orange juice and toothpaste.
This country needs to come together. McCain has changed his viewpoints from 2000 because to such a degree it negates credibility from one who was a straight talker. Agree or disagree with him. His arguments now are “fruit from the poisonous tree.” Change is good. Unity is great. Obama inspires others. McCain inspires no one. Except those who refuse, adamantly to admit inspiration is exactly what this country needs. Status quo is just a no no. It is a reasonable contention to state McCain is the status quo. If not, the world will perceive it as such.
Isolationism does not work. We have much bigger fish to fry. China. Venuzuela, Cuba, The Mid East. Shoring up the safety of Israel. Our best ally and the model we should use for security frankly. Pound for pound, they’re just as tough as we are. Everyone must serve. Plus, they will always be on our side no matter what. Mossad knows what the heck to do. We should model our skyways after theirs. What, are we now going to trust that Quadaffi? Pleez.
To minimize the importance of oratory is myopic. Kennedy’s oratory saved us from the Cuban Missle Crisis (although the Bay of Pigs folks I know would disagree). That was before my time, but, given the passage of time, I honestly can’t believe we haven’t seen the real attack.
Ok, I have to take a nap.
Defending criminals= hard work
Defending military=easy work.
See ya before going out in the dreaded physical world. :wink
June 27, 2008
Sgt. you asked about a way to send some stuff to the troops in the other post… I don’t have as many contacts as I used to, but I do have a couple of addresses for guys in Iraq. If you would like I can pass those on once I get their permission to share the info. An added box of movies or anything you can or want to send is always welcome. I know what you mean about wanting to do something special for them for the 4th. Last year Mike was in Iraq and Mr. H! was at Ft. Benning. We were all scattered and apart. It was tough. This 4th we will all be together! All of us!
I will light an extra fire cracker in your honor! :!
June 27, 2008
I joined at the invitation of SgtPepper-every site he’s pointed me to has been been very informative and fun. We’ve been discussing things for awhile now.
I’m ex-Army and ex-Air Force, have seen several actions in the 1980′s from a view that I can’t talk about. Formerly stationed in Pensacola, Fl, Okinawa, Kelly AFB, and Luke AFB.
Al Czervic’s comments were on the money. MoveOn.org’s ad was an emotional appeal to everyone and anyone against war and the military in general. Of course no mother would want their child to die. But at the same time, no mother has the right to decide for her grown child which course his/her destiny is to take. That’s always been up to the individual.
What makes it sickening-how many people have died to ensure the far-left liberals have the chutzpah to throw the freedom of speech back at us, who volunteered ourselves as the buffers to protect that right to do so.
McCain’s statement that “we might be in Iraq for 100 years” is generic and can be interpreted any way you like, according to your political leaning.
IMO, McCain’s statement means that we need to have a permanent presence in Iraq. Which fits in nicely with Bush’s Iraq policies-regarding oil, Iran, and Syria. I don’t have the link just now, but if one googles “How many bases is Congress budgeting for in Iraq,” a site should come up saying 50 bases are waiting to be built, and that a few members in Iraq’s parliament aren’t very happy about this.
Re: SgtPepper’s comments on military build-up:
A few days ago, Sen. Obama reiterated his plan to help college bound students pay for their tuition and books, with the caveat that they have to commit to the government in return-foreign service, military, Peace Corps, or something related. It’s an excellent way to guarantee a renewable source of recruitment. Something HAS to be done. However, the pay doesn’t equal the services men and women provide. Most men and women become expert at their particular jobs in which they were trained, but see how much the civilian sector gets paid. It is EXTREMELY unbalanced. Retention is impossible under the current system. Vets are truly a disenfranchised group, who do more for less, while putting up with demeaning assholes.
In conclusion-the way to ensure that WE the PEOPLE are heard, letter campaigns, emails to your senators, representatives, succinctly stating what yall are saying here does do a lot of good.
In November, every seat in the House of Representatives is open for election. This is everyone’s chance to vote and put in some REAL change: oversight, reasonable budgets, troop withdrawal, real diplomacy, not pretend(which is what Condi is doing, BTW). It’s a chance to tell our lawmakers of BOTH parties, SHAPE UP OR SHIP OUT! If you don’t respect your own country’s CONSTITUTION, YOU HAVE NO BUSINESS IN WASHINGTON, D.C.!
June 28, 2008
Thanks there Daringtexan!
I like reading the good ganooz too with Mrs. and Mr. Hooah! Ganooz. The Great Space Coaster with Gary Ganooz. Here. In cyberspace. More people should read good news too. The news on the war in Iraq barely pops up on the media radar today. Good or bad.
I just know we all don’t know the answers. We all make mistakes. What irks me about the status of politics in general, is the very nature of it. Yet The Great Experiment, American Politics, is the best there is, was, and will always be.
But, for The Armed Forces, I wouldn’t be able to write this or anything. People seem to forget that. But for the Constituition, Carlin might have been imprisoned forever if he did his act in (I don’t know….) NORTH KOREA!!!!
Plainly, in non military speak or my normal tone here, lemmeee just opine for a brief moment. That is a joke. I will be long winded and apologize in advance.
Obama’s the man! Now, I love McCain in ways most Democrats know but cannot articulate. The Senator from Arizona was tortured. For five years I think. Man, we owe this guy big time. However, The Presidency is not some kind of quid-pro-quo type of thing.
He’s a distinguished Senator from Arizona. An affable fellow with a temper I don’t really mind all too much, but policy that will forever alter the course of this Nation because of his potential choices for justices on The Supreme Court and federal court system.
That my fellow friends (I hope) is the primary reason I am voting for Obama. The power to appoint Federal judges, especially justices of The United States Supreme Court.
I agree with the Gun decision. TRUST ME. AIN’T NO ONE TAKING AWAY MY 1911 COLLECTION. ALLRIGHT FLORIDA. WE GOT IT GOOD HERE ON THAT ISSUE.
The GTMO decision, which McCain lambasted, is the perfect example of why I would never vote for McCain. Habeus rights. McCain had no Habeus rights. If we take away the basic right to be heard from our worst enemies, such a policy would create greater danger for those serving. I am now paraphrasing views thought by many, including McCain on issues of torture.
How McCain can accept “Star Chamber” proceedings baffles me. Flip-flop is not a word to be used. How about this one: He’s flat out wrong.
The Founding Fathers expressly wrote there shall be no more “Star Chambers.” Why? Think about what King George did to the Colonists. Debtors prisons. Prior restraint on speech. Or what England did to colonists who didn’t tow the line.
The Supreme Court needs a massive chiropractic treatment. It is hanging by a thread. Justice Kennedy is now the “swing” vote. Look at the four justices to the right: Justices Scalia, Thomas, Alito, and Chief Justice Roberts. To the left: Justices Ginsburg, Souter (thank goodness for that Bush “mistake”), Breyer, and good ol’ Stevens. In the middle is Justice Kennedy.
Look familiar? Dead on reflection of the divide in this country.
You want to go back to madness? I would assume not. McCain will never, ever, balance the court system. The issues can get super intense here so I will avoid them, however, “The Four Horseman” (just came up with that) are radical in their views. Far different and more radical than Breyer, or Souter, or Ginsburg. Stevens is clearly to the left, however, that guy has courage. He’s the eldest statesman on The Court,, and you should see the way Scalia disrespects him in the dissents and opinions. I don’t think it right. You don’t do that to a person, let alone a fellow sitting Justice on The Court. Justice Scalia won’t even utter the word “Respectfully” when he dissents from Stevens.
Justice Scalia is brilliant. He thinks of himself as a strict constructionist. I completely agree with the conclusion The Court reached on the handgun case Scalia authored. However his view on the law, is that he is “The Law.”
Strict Construction was used as a fallacious pretext for getting what ought be done. A reasonable right to defend oneself. With a handgun. When he tries to define the word “Militia” within the confines of the Second Amendment, he defies logic.
Just say it right. The Constitution is a living and breathing document. The Founders weren’t thinking of drive by shootings and what not when they wrote the word militia. They were thinking about people. By the way, if we ought always view what the Founders thought as the gospel, I would ask a few questions: Isn’t it fair to say we can’t always tell what they thought? Isn’t it also fair to say the Founders thought women had no place in politics?
Lennon wrote a song with a title I will not mention here. However, some Founders knew slavery was wrong but the political climate wasn’t the right temperature for a change. Bottom line after this rant, we ought try to that which is just. The Founders can guide, but certainly are not the end all way of interpreting the Constitution.
You try to do that which is REASONABLE UNDER THE CIRCUMSTANCES. A phrase in the law the Founders clung to actually.
If elected, McCain will destroy the “balance” on the Court. I don’t need to remind anyone of the last time there was a Constitutional upheaval.
OUT.
P.S. Wow. Almost forgot Claire, please let me know how to send a care package of movies and stuff.
June 28, 2008
Claire, the pics at Abu Graib. How we let cameras in there, I don’t understand. Somethings we don’t need to know. I think it was a horrific mistake but should have been covered up. That and my previous arguments are not mutually exclusive. Geneva code.
June 28, 2008
Pics at Abu Ghraib were done by a whistle blower who was appalled at what was going on. The horrible fact: his own state’s representative didn’t know what to do about it at first! How sad is that.
GTMO was nearly the same, only this time, it was FBI agents who toured the place. The website was up for only a few days before the powers that be took it down, and was posted anonymously by one of the horrified agents.
RE: covering up- I agree that in the midst of fighting insurgents, release of those pictures was exceptionally stupid timing. But they had to be released at some juncture, because international bodies were already demanding information regarding detainees. With the Bush administration dragging its feet and stalling even high level diplomats, both fiascos were PR disasters waiting to happen.
I’d like to think that McCain is just pandering to ultra conservatives of his party solely to get elected when he says such things. However, he’s the representative of the GOP; whatever he says is bound to tick off some group or other, they’re that extreme these days. Same for Obama.
Re: Founding Fathers’ Intent:
#1 They knew they had NO CONTROL for the future of this country, which is why they wrote the Constitution the way they did, making it flexible to changes, intending for the Bill of Rights to remain static, but allowing for
additional codicils in the future. For example, the addition of wire-tapping to be included in the 4th amendment was added almost 150 years later.
#2 They were most adamant about separating church from state, but even back then, there was much debate. In the end, they remembered how the King was the one who determined which religion would be practiced, rejecting one religion over another.
#3 Today, many people point to the various philosophers of the forefathers’ day to stress how government should be run, which economic theory to follow, allowance or ban for certain rights of the citizens. While it’s useful for things such as economic policies, those views don’t apply very well now.
For instance, abortion is extremely controversial today. However, in their day, it was something everyone knew took place, but it was never talked about. Their views back then would be more than a little shocking to pro-lifers today, who constantly point to the Puritans as exemplary. None of them ever read the Scarlet Letter, I bet. Horn dogs, all of them!
#4(the last)
The forefathers intended for fair, just, and reasonable laws to be written and enacted, to ensure equitable governance and independence for all. To move away from this is to become what the colonists fled from-tyrants, oppressors, abusers of power.
June 28, 2008
Hi daringtexan! Nice to have you on board and good to meet ‘ya! If you know the Sgt. then we know you are good company!
Sgt. I thought that may be what you were referencing, but I wasn’t sure. Yes, I agree that there is no reason for cameras and such being in a prison. Cover ups are a hard beast to tackle.
There was a day and time in this Country when our main stream media would have stopped for a second and asked themselves if the information they were getting ready to share would hurt our standing while we were at war — not today. Today they could care less. They will broadcast anything and everything if it gets them ratings (even a video of US soldier being killed — the bastards!)
So, what’s worse? Which of the two evils will do the least amount of harm? Holding information back? Giving it to a hungry pack of unethical media wolves who will prostitute the information out for their own gain? We have to have a free press and with that the free sharing of information — but there has to be balance and accountability. I don’t like cover ups because it does take away from the accountability. Although we are at war. War is hell as you said earlier.
War is also another reality. It is really easy for the American people and the media to cast judgment on every step taken by the troops, but they are not the ones who is dodging bullets, dodging IEDs and burying their friends. Arm chair Generals can come up with some pretty elaborate plans that would never work in the real battlefield. We can come up with a lot of wonderful moral narratives as to how things should go (neat and clean and nice) in the battlefield, but we are not there in their boots.
Sometimes cover up is necessary to protect innocent people. Sometimes exposure is essential to force change. I just don’t think that there is an easy answer — it is a judgment call.
Now does combat and deployment stress excuse unethical behavior? No it doesn’t, but it may shed some light on why we see things happen that are less than savory. I am not talking right out criminal here though — the criminal behavior should always be punished to the extent that the law will allow. I guess I am saying that ethical, unethical, kind, unkind, good idea, not so good idea… a lot of these things do fall within a context. Taken out of the context they seem horrifying, but viewed within the context they make sense.
I need a cup of coffee to continue on! It’s been a long morning and both you and Texan give a lot of thought to chew on. I like the conversations a lot! :B)
June 28, 2008
Hi Claire and Daringtexan!
Ahhh… The paradox. Claire and Daringtexan have both hit it. Utilitarian choices.
As to The Founding Fathers (what’s up with the Mothers btw) is only part of a way to interpret The Constitution. Justice Scalia is a “strict construction.” When he says “strict,” it insults all disciplinarians with rulers. There is no breathing document.
DT brings up the wiretapping statute and another issue I’m not touching. However, both are based in the 4th amendment, where there is no explicit right of privacy in its’ text. The right exists in “the penumbras and emanations” in Bill of Rights. Huh? See, Roe v. Wade. That actually makes sense, however, not to Scalia or many legal scholars to be fair. Also to be fair, Scalia and the scholars don’t know what the heck they’re talking about. OF COURSE WE HAVE PRIVACY RIGHTS. SOME STATE CONSTITUTIONS ACTUALLY HAVE AN EXPLICITLY WRITTEN RIGHT TO PRIVACY IN IT. It is quite easy to infer from the 4th, 5th, and 14th amendments, a right to privacy. They’ve been debating this for centuries now. The Patriot Act cuts against some privacy rights. A tad. But, a necessary evil perhaps Claire? In some instances. Reasonable ones. Problem with McCain and those who want to appoint conservative, strict constructionists. There are treatises devoted to the topic. I know someone who wrote one (not a treatise but it could been).
Claire, my friend “Gunner” and I talked about Vietnam and the pics. War is hell. One cannot understand that unless in it. Empathy. It’s hard as heck. When one doesn’t know what’s up or down and they are in the thick of things, the moral compass gets lost and it is actually quite understandable. This type of stuff has happened throughout the history of war. It’s horrific. But, reality. America needs to be a beacon of light to demonstrate what not to do. Now we are in the paradox.
There is no way to stop it. The nature of war, as I understand it, creates a condition where I don’t think one can really assign FULL moral culpability. Why? War is hell. If you are in hell, hell can cause conduct like that. Those who did that acted in a diminished capacity. Those who tolerated it were in a conundrum impossible to teach in training. Nothing can prepare one fully for war, I would think, until war.
Cover up or not. Depends. I agree with DT in the sense that people knew and it was coming out. Thus, plausible deniability. But, that couldn’t work b/c of electronic cameras and poor leadership. Mostly, b/c of electronic cameras and the age we are in.
I am in no way condoning what happened. However, Utilitarian theory must be considered. The greatest good, paradoxically butts against my earlier arguments. A Catch-22. One thing I know, GET THOSE CAMERAS AWAY FROM MILITARY PERSONNEL. The amount of pleasure one might get from taking an innocent picture is not worth the price for the dreeaded ones that could get out. Case and point. As to GTMO, follow Geneva and this would have never been an issue. Unreal.
That is no mistake. Geneva was not followed. THEORETICALLY, Bush, Cheney, Rummy, (and others) could be brought up on War Crimes. Sick huh? No one wants to hear that noise. No one will dare make that noise. Except Kucinich. YIKES! Not even the UN is doing anything. Which is fine by me from a Utilitarian standpoint. Truth is, Congress, as a whole, permitted as much tacitly. It permitted Japanese Interment and the like. Habeus was suspended by Lincoln. This is a tough legal issue and moral one to say the least. GTMO and Habeus was not for people caught on the battlefield though I believe. I read the opinion.
Argh. My mind hurts. I know I have to think about it more. A phrase from a song I remember comes to mind (yet not the title for some reasons) “intellectual Vietnam.”
THESE ARE HARD QUESTIONS TO ANSWER. However, the perception of our country, not reality, needs to be examined. Hence, Obama. We can try to figure out this other stuff later. Although honestly, the nature of war precludes this from ever happening. It is what it is. I’m all about civil rights. However, war ain’t civil.. The folks low on the totem pole got royally screwed. Who ordered the Code Red? Do we need someone on that wall after all? Same song, historically repeated verse.
June 28, 2008
I wonder if we would have ever had JFK if the media was like it is now. Why do you think good Americans can’t run anymore? The media knew what to keep private. Now, we would have an embedded reporter in bed taking snap shots of private parts. Ya think today’s media might want to know if a pair of politicians were hooking up with like Brittany? SORRY MARILYN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Man. Think of the pain it caused her then. To be fair, same with Brittany or Ana Nicole. Walk a freaking mile in their dang high heels. Two of the three women I just mentioned died before there time. Think societal pressure played a role? Of course it did. The camera can shoot a deadly slow moving round.
June 28, 2008
Very good post Sgt. and good points. I was on my way back here to ask you if you ever read Michael Yon (excellent, awesome front line blogger)? He has a recent post up about torture and what it does to our image. He is very insightful and a great read. When I was reading his article I thought “Sgt. P. needs to see this if he hasn’t already!”
The link is http://www.michaelyon-online.com/
Let me know what you think.
June 28, 2008
I’ll check it out! I haven’t. It’s hard being reasonable. But that’s the goal. Gunner taught me a lot. I credit him, and lately daringtexant and y’all. :
I need to lighten this up. Can we talk about mini skirts again? I can dim it too. But that joke is not for here. :lol
June 28, 2008
Mr. Hooah!
Uh, can you like do some trivia or something?
I agree with his point on Afghanistan: Literally I think. How can anyone reasonably argue against his point.
Here’s a transcript of a debate I had with someone on this (which Obama endorses to an extent, maybe, not sure, he’s not vague enough
Me: Uh, yeah, we like need to kick butt in Afghanistan and stuff.
Twit: No. We need to come home.
Me: Footprint? Footprint? WE SHOULD STOMP A DANG MUDHOLE IN THEIR bllep.
Twit: What? What? What?
Me: I may have failed geography and geology; I don’t know if you can have mud in Afghanistan because of an arid climate. THOSE bleepity bleeps started this. That’s why we’re knee deep in BLEEP. SCRFEW THEM. LET’S BUILD US SOME WAL MARTS WITH MISSILES. This ain’t no Bleepity bleep Iraq. We know who started it, where it was started, time to find that BLEEP BLEEPER AND TORTURE HIM.
Twit: I thought you don’t believe in torture.
Me: THERE IS AN EXCEPTION FOR THIS ONE BLEEP. :!
June 28, 2008
I just read the article Clarie. Guys a genius although I am inclined to agree with Joe on the War. As to torture, I was laughing when thinking about the one exception I want to carve into the Geneva Code.
Groupthink (Hello Orwell) can be foiled. I agree. I don’t have standing to post there. Plus, this issue is too hard to take on now. I would encourage everyone to click on the link Claire provided for the issue of torture. But, there must be a Bin Laden exception. Sorry. I draw the line there.
June 28, 2008
Thank You Claire!
Gee-I leave for a few hours to spend time with my husband, and look at all the pithiness! I don’t know where to start, but I’ll be brief for each issue.
*CAMERAS, et al- It’s the responsibility of COMMANDERS at every level to ensure that nothing untoward gets to the public arena that could endanger lives and/or the mission. All it would have taken was to use the UCMJ to confiscate iPods, Blackberries, cellphones, cellphones with cameras, digital cameras, and PC’s. All they had to do was provide snail mail and landline phones to a secure switchboard in the Green Zone, to make overseas calls to home. It’s war, people! Everyone has to make a few personal sacrifices. STUPID IS AS STUPID DOES.
the Media-There ought to be an ethics course in journalism classes that teach why it’s sometimes harmful to publish certain events during riots, wars, and other dangerous conflicts. War IS hell, but DISCRETION IS THE BETTER PART OF VALOR. Crap like Abu Ghraib, GTMO, should have been handled discreetly by Dept. of Defense and the State Dept. Sadly, neither of those secretaries was competent enough to do it, let alone enlist the aid of the UN! STUPID IS AS STUPID DOES.
A third issue not discussed-the ‘embedding of journalists”-Geraldo Rivera! They were all ready to be more Ernie Pyles, but their insights left a lot to be desired. For one thing, it was no better than what Stars and Stripes prints!
The other-it was just plain STUPID to let Geraldo participate! He’s stupidity incarnate.
Enforcement of the UCMJ and adhering to established precedent before this crap, would have eliminated a lot of deaths at the hands of insurgents,
public displays of abject obscenity, and might have heightened our military’s and the media’s respectability.
June 28, 2008
A little story. Long ago and far away I DID take an ethics in journalism course. There really WAS such a thing….gasp! Every week I would go into class and say to the prof : “yes, here comes another short class”. He used to laugh at me, BUT we did discuss situations we might encounter as we practised our profession. (Yes, despite all the huge evidence to the contrary, I DO think of Journalism as a profession) I don’t believe the current batch of whatever they call themselves ARE fit to be called Journalists.
As for ethics in Journalism or anywhere else. I have long believed you can legislate, enshrine, etc etc but ultimaely it comes down to an individual’s moral compass.
I was taught some stuff that is sposedly accept practice – and legal – BUT it is stuff I will NEVER do, hence why I will probably never work in the msm.
June 29, 2008
I think you’ve hit the bull’s eye, brat-it depends on the journalist’s moral compass. There are so many blurred lines and gray areas in many stories, that seem right at the time. Such as Abu Ghraib. That story NEEDED to be told. People NEEDED to brought to justice. But it wasn’t the right time to tell it.
Moral compass is one thing; intuitive discernment is a gift.
I think the greatest journalists I”ve ever read about had those qualities and one other-salesmanship. You’ve got to know how, and to whom, to tell it.
I’m glad you don’t do things I’ve seen some do on TV. Like you, the ones who don’t follow the easy path are the TRUE professionals.
Does this mean you freelance?
June 29, 2008
Daringtexan: I am not sure what you would call what I do, other than WRITE!
WRITE is what I do, and I leave it to others to label whatever it is…..;)
June 29, 2008
brat-
It was late! I was referring to what TV anchors spout from other’s writings, unless the crap they report is their OWN writing-(which I suspect they do, on occasion) I shoulda put that in there. Sorry, didn’t mean to be ambiguous!
June 29, 2008
brat-
)
It was late! I was referring to what TV anchors spout from other’s writings, unless the crap they report is their OWN writing-(which I suspect they do, on occasion) I shoulda put that in there. Sorry, didn’t mean to be ambiguous!
Sorry, comments for this entry are closed at this time.